tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post3137634531585559885..comments2023-10-23T10:15:44.618-05:00Comments on The Real Shliach: Strands of FrandJust like a guyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-6731598240522472732008-05-30T12:56:00.000-05:002008-05-30T12:56:00.000-05:00OK Nemo, here's the situation. I checked through t...OK Nemo, here's the situation. I checked through the Sefer Hamaftechos of both the Rebbe Rashab and the Friedriker Rebbe. Nothing. I don;t trust either, because I've seen Maamarim that at least quote the Passuk (Micah 6, 5); in the Rebbe Rashab's that Maamar is Zechor Hashem 5679, while the Friedriker Rebbe has it in one of the Kuntreisim. The Rebbe brings it down in one Maamar in Melukat, though the Maamar itself isn't Mugah. That Maamar is Aleh Masai 5713. <BR/>Unfortunately, both Maamarim which I managed to locate focus on the Yirah part of the Passuk, not Ahava. <BR/>Bichlal, none of the Meforshim in Nach Lublin or Mikraos Gedolos really say anything, so at this point I guess I'll just give up the good fight.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-4512852420581750222008-05-29T21:17:00.000-05:002008-05-29T21:17:00.000-05:00According to Frand, yes. According to Chassidus? I...According to Frand, yes. According to Chassidus? I honestly don't know. Yet.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-26200153907924104442008-05-29T21:15:00.000-05:002008-05-29T21:15:00.000-05:00To be the guy that chases the Meshulach down with ...To be the guy that chases the Meshulach down with a check.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-38627552288389406052008-05-29T21:02:00.000-05:002008-05-29T21:02:00.000-05:00A. I'm trying. B. Really? C. What other ways are t...A. I'm trying. B. Really? C. What other ways are there?Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-29926932018909266332008-05-29T20:51:00.000-05:002008-05-29T20:51:00.000-05:00Well, dig it up.This seems like a good Pshat to me...Well, dig it up.<BR/><BR/>This seems like a good Pshat to me. Although there are other ways to also be Ohev Chessed.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-48589806957795899742008-05-29T19:19:00.000-05:002008-05-29T19:19:00.000-05:00Frand wants you to think this is Ahavas Chessed. H...Frand wants you to think this is Ahavas Chessed. He says that it's Ahavas Chessed. I bet you that Chassidus has a totally different pshat that would blow this thing out of the water like there's no tomorrow.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-33836493980381256182008-05-29T17:56:00.000-05:002008-05-29T17:56:00.000-05:00Granted. But it's irrelevant. We're to assume, bas...Granted. But it's irrelevant. We're to assume, based on the fact that the story is being told in this context, that the intention is as Rabbi Frand is correct. He's correct in the point that he's trying to bring across, that if that was the RY's actual feeling, that would be "the epitome of Ahavas Chessed."<BR/><BR/>In another situation, say if we wanted to make a character defamation on the esteemed rabbi, your points would be valid.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-70408855438617151172008-05-29T14:30:00.000-05:002008-05-29T14:30:00.000-05:00It seems like I keep on saying the same thing, but...It seems like I keep on saying the same thing, but who says his love was for the Chessed. Maybe he just felt bad that his Talmidim had no money, or that he (Rabbi Frand) sent away a guy empty handed. Not that I like to suspect a guy, but is this really the best example Frand could have provided? It just doesn't demonstrate conclusively that there is Ahavas Chessed going on over here-it could still be Ahavas Atzmo.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-56202438632500569932008-05-29T12:56:00.000-05:002008-05-29T12:56:00.000-05:00TRS- If it would have been possible to do Chessed,...TRS- If it would have been possible to do Chessed, he wouldn't have hesitated. He loved Chessed so much that it hurt him not to accomplish it. Of course he knows it would be better to actually give the money, but he's despairing because it's just not possible. Yes, our purpose here is Tachlis- and nothing the RY did contradicts that- but that doesn't mean that we can't be bothered by our inability to fulfill our purpose.<BR/><BR/>And now for a little of my Kefira. As Lubavitchers we always believe that where there's a will there's a way, if you build it, [money] will come, and other such cliches. So it's natural for us to think that all you've got to do is make a Keli and Hashem will provide. It works most of the time, and every Shliach has one or two of these stories, but there are also times when it's impossible to press on and on for money which isn't there. The RY recognized that his guys just didn't have money and he was bothered that they wouldn't be able to help.<BR/><BR/>Call it pessimism, call it realism, but to me that is devotion.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-696098311220038582008-05-29T11:54:00.000-05:002008-05-29T11:54:00.000-05:00Eliezer: What did this love lead to? Tears. No act...Eliezer: What did this love lead to? Tears. No action. Ahavas Chessed leads to action. Is it a nice thing to cry if you can't give charity? Yes, but Ahavas Chessed it ain't.<BR/>Arnie: Yes, I fully agree. My theory is that if a guy is desperate enough to go begging for money then he must need it. I hate asking for money, so when someone asks me, I figure, "How would I feel in his shoes" and give. Not necessarily a whole lot, but I try and give.<BR/>Nemo and Eliezer: Glad to hear you're best friends now.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-35729813313291414752008-05-29T10:50:00.000-05:002008-05-29T10:50:00.000-05:00Oh. nice. I thought you were being sarcastic.Oh. nice. I thought you were being sarcastic.ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-11026016858647746192008-05-29T10:28:00.000-05:002008-05-29T10:28:00.000-05:00I said that I'm with you buddy!I said that I'm with you buddy!Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-80385509345494991252008-05-29T01:50:00.000-05:002008-05-29T01:50:00.000-05:00a fascinating topic and discussion. yasher koach. ...a fascinating topic and discussion. yasher koach. for me, whatever tzedakah you give has to be given only to places that use it efficiently and effectively, otherwise:<BR/><BR/>a) you are wasting precious tzedakah shekels, and<BR/><BR/>b) you are literally stealing from the poor people you were trying to help. (see "al tigzol dal, kee dal hu" - mishlei 22:22 and the various comments on it, paticularly bamidbar rabba 5:2<BR/><BR/>so, be careful of those asking for your tzedakah money - it is NOT yours to begin with, but belongs to the people in need, so use it wisely. be smart!<BR/><BR/>arnie draiman<BR/>www.draimanconsulting.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-76527994479286019512008-05-28T23:36:00.000-05:002008-05-28T23:36:00.000-05:00????????ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-87102923305698687972008-05-28T23:34:00.000-05:002008-05-28T23:34:00.000-05:00(With the Heilige R' Eliezer here)(With the Heilige R' Eliezer here)Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-86489628110666942282008-05-28T21:53:00.000-05:002008-05-28T21:53:00.000-05:00He loved the doing Chessed. When he couldn't do it...He loved the doing Chessed. When he couldn't do it, he felt bad, indicating his love for the action of chessed.ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-4071881824006716252008-05-28T19:18:00.000-05:002008-05-28T19:18:00.000-05:00Eliezer, you have yet to answer my question. Ahava...Eliezer, you have yet to answer my question. Ahavas Chessed is loving the Chessed...which part of the Chessed was he loving here?Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-49561604965848454762008-05-28T18:14:00.000-05:002008-05-28T18:14:00.000-05:00Eliezer- I'm not your typical Lubavitcher. I quest...Eliezer- I'm not your typical Lubavitcher. I question Lubavitchers to the same degree, although with Lubavitchers it's very different. It goes with the Hassidic territory to be self-congratulatory and also with Lubavitchers, when they want to show the amplitude of their leaders and achievers, they let you know what they're doing. They also don't mask their extolling in relative contrasts- this is Hamon Am, and then - even better - this is how a Gadol acts; a level which we Hamon Am can never achieve.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-62147430450880569502008-05-28T17:23:00.000-05:002008-05-28T17:23:00.000-05:00Nemo: How can a Lubavitcher say such things? Lubav...Nemo: How can a Lubavitcher say such things? Lubavs use stories of the Rebbeim/great Chassidim much more profligately than snags do. And they relate said stories with the intention of accentuating said leaders' greatness, not necessarily to teach a lesson.<BR/><BR/>Some even postulate that snag godol-worship is an effect of hasidic Rebbe-worshipehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-66375346180293055862008-05-28T17:19:00.000-05:002008-05-28T17:19:00.000-05:00TRS: You proabably disagree with Rabbi Frand about...TRS: You proabably disagree with Rabbi Frand about the relative value of chessed versus ahavas chessed, but R. Frand's definition of the terms is still correct. The hypothetical pizza and ice cream lover does chessed without loving it. And Rav Pam would love to actually do the chessed, just he freaking was able! Admit it. The snag is right.ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-19697709012188760002008-05-28T16:46:00.000-05:002008-05-28T16:46:00.000-05:00At least anything exemplary.Sometimes I wonder whe...At least anything exemplary.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I wonder whether these are lessons to take or whether they're just intended to accentuate the greatness of said leaders.Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-23381044514353556552008-05-28T14:40:00.000-05:002008-05-28T14:40:00.000-05:00Perhaps because the only superior behavior among t...Perhaps because the only superior behavior among these "Litvish-types" is that of the "Gedolim".Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-47403297817065508652008-05-28T13:39:00.000-05:002008-05-28T13:39:00.000-05:00Why is it that Litvish-types always have to illust...Why is it that Litvish-types always have to illustrate superior behavior in these stories with a story about a Gadol?Nemohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08402531988433648505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-85206704605851968592008-05-28T12:59:00.000-05:002008-05-28T12:59:00.000-05:00If that's Ahavas Chessed, then I want no part in i...If that's Ahavas Chessed, then I want no part in it. But seriously, true Ahavas Chessed is loving Chessed, which means loving the action of Chessed. Over here, what was he loving exactly? I'm not quite sure what Ahavas Chessed exactly is, but I don't think this it.Just like a guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680468025321981540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1956851062928470828.post-60483362972255011502008-05-28T12:40:00.000-05:002008-05-28T12:40:00.000-05:00Let Chessed be better than Ahavas Chessed. But sof...Let Chessed be better than Ahavas Chessed. But sof kol sof, Rabbi Frand has a valid distinction. Rav Pam's tears do in fact the phenomenon of "ahavas chessed" and not "chessed. Unfortunately, R. Frand is right.ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.com