Friday, April 1, 2011

After Norway

In the great TRS tradition of yore, I hereby present to you a slightly abridged account of a speech recently given by Alan Dershowitz in Cape Town, SA, as recorded by LtD.

--
Heavy security without the location being given and tickets only once they had received an email from you with ID number, etc. Dershowitz's time in SA was very controversial as he forcefully atacked Bishop Desmond Tutu for his double-standard towards Israel and thereby got all the liberals mad at him. The audience in Cape Town, numbering 1200, was very warm and cheered most of his statements.
Israel:
One of the most "legitimate" countries in the world - established by legitimate law (unlike say the US which was created out of revolution; or the Arab states created by British, French interests creating fake countries in the Middle East) by organizations such as the League of Nations, United Nations following such international papers as the Balfour Declaration.
Since 1970, Dershowitz has been in favor of the "two-state" solution. He would like to see the Palestinians succeed as a nation assuming that they are creating a peaceful nation that fully recognizes Israel. Ramallah is a thriving city with a high GNP whereas Gaza is a disaster (rather like East and West Berlin). He wishes that the Gazans (the east-Berliners) would recognize the value of being like the west-Berliners (Ramallah). After all it was the people, not Reagan or the Pope, who pushed down the Berlin wall, and the Gazans could do the same.
The settlements are not the issue however - there was no serious peace offer even prior to the settlement issues.
Hatred of Israel intense and inexplicable - described as "eroticized hatred." One cannot deal with irrationality in a rational way.
Using the term "apartheid" regarding Israel is meaningless. (For example, the 3 judge panel that sentenced the former PM to 7 years for rape included one Arab judge and two women. In apartheid SA, a black man sitting in judgment on a white former PM?) In fact, Israel is the only country in the Middle East not to have an apartheid system.
Boycott of Israel:
No similar event since the actions of the Nazis in the 1930s; in fact the Arab boycott modeled on the Nazi plan.
IDF.
One of the most principled armies in history - evaluation completed by a US colonel looking at the ratio of combatants killed/innocents killed - Israel scores the best of any military. Goebbels killed his entire family allegedly because of concerns that if his children survived they would be tortured by Jews - in fact while ex-Nazis were hunted down there were no reprisals against family members. It is true that killing of civilians including children do occur in IDF raids but every effort is made to avoid this. (When a leading terrorist was killed by the air-force the fact that some children were killed in the same attack lead to huge criticism of the airforce in Israel.) This in contrast to the willful killing of Israelis by terrorists. Joke: new jet for Israel has three seats - pilot, navigator, lawyer.
Netanyau.
His primary focus is security - he will do, and give, whatever he has to, to ensure that there is security. "Strength before peace." (a psalm). He is against the settlements as they sap the strength of the IDF. However, Israel is a true democracy - he has to follow the instructions of his government which as we know extends across the whole spectrum - very hard to push his own views.
Obama.
A smart man, a former student at Harvard, but lacking real experience. Dershowitz voted for him and generally votes democratic. Next election is going to depend on who the Republicans put up. (Joke: when it was heard that Sarah Palin was visiting Israel, it was said - haven't the Jews suffered enough?)
Unlike Bush and Clinton, Obama lacks a passionate belief in Israel - to him it is just another country. In a recent speech he changed US policy to Israel (maybe) - previously an attack on or threat to Israel was considered an attack on the US - unequivocal. Now he seems to be saying that only if US interests are at stake would the US support Israel in event of an attack.
He should propose and aggressively enact an initiative - a two month window, settlements frozen, serious negotiations, after which he agrees to visit Jerusalem and Ramallah to put pressure on the negotiations.
Lesson of the holocaust - believe the threats of your enemies, never the promises of your friends.
What the Palestinians want:
He addressed a meeting at Stanford - half the audience were Israel supporters, the other half Palestinian. He asked the obvious Israel supporters if they would accept a peaceful solution that included a Palestinian state - all hands were raised. The same question to the Palestinians was a resounding "no" (i.e., the destruction of Israel was more important than their own state). Claims made by the Palestinians are clearly wrong e.g. they claim Tel Aviv - a city that never existed until Jews created it out of the desert.
South Africa.
The SA government has created problems. For example, with countries like Norway, it has recognized the Palestinians unilaterally and thereby encouraged them not to come to the bargaining table.
ANC has been "bed with" Gaddafi, Arafat etc. yet has the gall to hold Israel/Jews to a "higher standard."
The "Durban" conference was merely another Nuremberg conference - the SA representative to this conference has cheered the Iranian prime minister.
University of Johannesburg.
Recently cut ties with Ben Gurion university. UJ will be denied the technical skills e.g. in water purification and management which Ben Gurion U is a recognized world authority. Plus a large group of Jewish academics will boycott in turn UJ and its affiliates in response - this will include permission to use any of their works, use any of their technology etc. In addition the boycott of BGU extends only to "Jewish" professors - isn't this discrimination against SA law?
Iran:
Impossible to negotiate with a suicide nation - remember they sent young boys ahead of troops to explode mines. US has badly handled Iran and Israel will need to take care of it themselves.
What's going to happen?
It is said that prophecy ended with the destruction of the second Temple - no one can predict. But meeting and negotiation is essential - we must always meet with our enemies. (Joke: difference between a terrorist and a Jewish mother - you can negotiate with a terrorist).
International Court of Justice:
Provided an opinion on Israel's security barrier. The head of this is the former head of the Beijing Communist Party - he organized building barriers in Tibet, supervised the suppression in Tienanmen Square and doesn't act unless specifically ordered by Beijing. Note that the Israel Supreme Court reviewed the legitimacy of the security barrier and required sections removed as they did not appear to support the goal of security.
United Nations:
Favorite topic - debating Israel. In 1975, when millions were being killed in Cambodia (denied by Chomsky at the time), the major UN topic was whether Zionism = racism; Darfur ignored, Israel debated.
The UN Human Rights Council has as its members, Libya, Iran, Saudi Arabia. This year Iran has the chair on the Women's rights Committee. Note that Gays in Palestinian areas seek asylum in Israel yet throughout the world, Gays often demonstrate against Israel.
Goldstone:
His report has been refuted - Dershowitz himself analyzed it line by line and showed the flaws. No criticism of Hamas yet they continuously violate the law. Goldstone, in the apartheid days, sentenced blacks to be whipped and sentenced blacks to death for crimes that whites could not commit. But he claims immunity because he's Jewish and his grandson had a bar mitzvah.

Argument by ethnicity
.
Many of Israel's opponents, who demonstrate no Jewish behavior or involvement in their lives, get onto platforms and declare that they are Jews and therefore their criticism of Israel must be valid.
Zionism:
This has become a dirty word although represents the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. People talk of being a "self-admitted" Zionist.

41 comments:

e said...

"Strength before peace" is a Psalm?

This is why I don't follow politics. It's too heartbreaking, and there's nothing I can do about it.

The Real Shliach said...

http://www.cfdevotionals.org/devpages/de971116.htm ?

Au contraire- you just have to become famous or a suicide bomber/doctor.

e said...

1. bah.

2. Little me going to Alan Dershowitz speeches and reading newspapers is not going to make any difference.

sarabonne said...

I will read this eventually, I really will. Probably motzei shabbos.

The Real Shliach said...

e: The flutterbys would disagree.

Sara: Don't forget.

e said...

flutterby?

The Real Shliach said...

Chaos theory.

e said...

bah.

The Real Shliach said...

Yeah well, it had to be said.

sarabonne said...

and here I thought flutterby was a horse with wings...but that was in a kids book.
I really can't read it, I keep spacing out. Maybe you'd like to write a brief synopsis 200 words or less, times new roman?

The Real Shliach said...

When the check comes through I'll be happy to.

e said...

In brief: Israel rocks.

sarabonne said...

...I like Israel.
Great post!

The Real Shliach said...

Of course, once this happens, it's anybody's guess.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html?_r=3&pagewanted=2&hp

sarabonne said...

and here I was feeling so elated.

The Real Shliach said...

Yeah, things look pretty bad.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Somebody at work asked me if I believe in a two-state solution. I answered: "As a libertarian, I believe in a no-state solution... everywhere."

I don't really care what the answer to the question of "Whether Israel has a right to exist as a state?" is. I know what is the answer to the question: "Do Jewish people have the right to defend themselves?"

Certified Ashkenazi said...

bam

Anonymous said...

it is not ltd. it is LDT.

Get your sources straight mr. tsr. errr...trs

The Real Shliach said...

CA: And as a Jew?

Anon: Um, no.

ex-Mossad said...

TRS thank you for posting!

I believe that people should read this. Don't walk lock step in that Israel Rocks! theory. We must involve ourselves in the nuances of the Israeli debate.

If we don't combat the irrational accusations; israel is an aparthied state, we face losing the battle even before it's fought. When Israel responded to the many rockets that were fired out of gaza. The kenetic action drummed up world condemnation, every leader in his PJ's stood there foaming at the mouth condeming Israel for killing civilians. Should Israel launch an investigation of USA of many civilian casualties in the Iraqi war?

I'll keep this short so people will read. Excuse my spelling mistakes I learnt english in yeshiva.

Anonymous said...

you're also a semi-colon abuser.

ex-Mossad said...

TRS did you notice on the NY Times article you linked that the picture is an misguided attempt to distort the vantage point of the reader.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html

You look at the picture in shock! are these people about to be executed? dead? prisoners? Instead they are praying, praying with their bottoms facing the temple mount the holy spot and their faces towards mecca. Does anyone think Arabs would give Jews the opportunity to pray in peace? Think Yom Kippur war.

I am a Zionist and proud.

WWRD? said...

But would the Rebbe be proud that you're a zionist?

ex-Mossad said...

Disclaimer:

"proud to be a zionist" was used as a shocker; to get the apathetic reader to sit straight in their seats. To take heart not my patheitc words, but get involved in Israel.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

As a Jew, I believe in Jews' responsibility to defend themselves using most effective methods. I don't think a state of any kind is one of them. Certainly it is better than living under the rule of the mamzerim. Nevertheless, I think a libertarian solution would be more effective.

It would also take care of the settlements problem. Wherever Jews are, they subscribe to services of competing "protection agencies".

State-shmate.

On the other hand, as my wife just noted, the Rebbe believed that the State is the best way to protect Jewish lives. On the other hand, maybe during the Rebbe’s times, market anarchy was not yet feasible (nor is it really now, without people believing in freedom).

The Real Shliach said...

Mossad: Are you ready to die defending the land and her people?

CA: Did the Rebbe believe that the state is the best way to protect Jewish lives? Or did he work with what he had, which admittedly wasn't much.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Whatever. Practically, it's the same thing.

I am more interested to know why the Rebbe said that there is no evidence for the Theory of Evolution.

The Real Shliach said...

No it's not.

As far as I know, that's not true.

Sorry! I couldn't resist. said...

TRS: Well you don't know very far.

e said...

CA: Maybe because the Rebbe was very wise but not a biologist? Maybe because the Rebbe had a biased perspective?

The Real Shliach said...

e: I distinctly remember reading something about how evolution is happening. I mean, just take a look at the tail bone.

e said...

whatever. I looked on chabad.org for the relevant letters, but I quit. I'm sure CA knows what the Rebbe did and did not say about evolution much better than I do.

The Real Shliach said...

I'm sure.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/113105/jewish/Appendix-4-Evolution-Myths-and-Facts.htm

I can find many such websites which "conclusively show" that Torah was written by four people.


The above is not the Rebbe's letter, however. In that letter, the Rebbe says something to the effect of:

"And if you're referring to the so-called Theory of Evolution, I can assure you that it presents no danger to Torah since there is no evidence to support it."

Certified Ashkenazi said...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Of course, as one might suggest, for macroevolution to happen, you need billions of years. But since the Earth exists for only 6771 years, there was obviously not enough time for macroevolution to happen. And all the evidence for the older Earth is based on the assumptions about carbon dating which are erroneous.

But then again...

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

My two cents: Everything in this post is something that our local campus Zionist cabal -- of which I am a proud and active member -- says repetedly and gets roundly ignored.

Re the Rebbe on evolution: Saying that the Rebbe qua Rebbe didn't know biology neither adds to nor detracts from him in any way. Saying that the Rebbe qua engineer didn't know biology is in fact a shevach. Ask any snobby engineer. So what is wrong with a chossid saying he didn't know biology?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Nobody cares whether the Rebbe knew biology. Or whether he wore a long-sleeve or a shirt-sleeve shirt. The point is that the Rebbe is an intermediary between us and G-d ("an intermediary that connects"). And therefore, his opinion about any aspect of avoidas Hashem is a law for his chassidim.

Which is why we put on tallis the way the Rebbe did, but don't really care which style of shoes he wore.

Now, had the Rebbe said the remark about evolution in passing, that wouldn't concern us. But he said it as a Rebbe, in response to a question about an aspect of avoidas Hashem. So, that is puzzling... (Especially since there really is no stira between TE and, lehavdil, Torah.)

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Also, according to my wife, there is a video of Rav Moshe Tendler saying that he had a conversation with the Rebbe about TE and he disagrees with him, but respects his knowledge of Biology.

(At the same time, he was dismissive of Shachter's et al. knowledge of Biology.)

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Schechter*