Monday, August 1, 2011

UnKosher Questions

In today's Chumash (specifically, verse 13) we read about a question asked of the R' Yosi by the Bishop Arius. There's a very interesting comment in the Sapirstein edition of the Chumash (page 12, note 9) which says, "Nothing other than what is mentioned here is known about this person. His name appears nowhere else in Torah literature." Funny that there's an entire Sicha (volume 34, page 9) about this guy's question, but that's neither here nor there. Of course, this is the Artscroll volume which famously quotes from Likkutei Sichos in the notes (quoted as "Beiurim LePeirush Rashi Al HaTorah" [notice the lack of a bibliography in the volume]), but again, take that as you will. My real question for you tonight is whether this Bishop Arius we are dealing with here is the same one who became famous for Arianism? It does seem possible, because Arianism is more monotheistic than Christianity, so it seems altogether possible that Arius was talking with famous Rabbis. What say you?

32 comments:

e said...

Why am I subscribing to this, when all it means is that I'll get lots of silly spam?

http://www.kchme.com/?p=2568

sarabonne said...

Erm, sure? Hey why don't you research it and publish a paper on it? (I get idealistic sometimes.)

The Real Shliach said...

e: I'm not offended at all.

Sara: Go for it.

sarabonne said...

re. e, I guess you guys aren't real friends then.
re. research paper, I'm far too lazy.

Anonymous said...

TRS,
Actually, it's funny I overheard some ppl discussing this issue today.

One pointed out, that indeed, in a newer version of the Sapirstein, they indeed substitute that note with the idea from LkuS, and quote "Likkutei Sichos" chapter and verse, and the sources brought therein.

The Real Shliach said...

Sara: humph.

Anon: Finally, an anon with toichen! Yippee!

And yeah, I'll have to check that out. I don't suppose they were discussing whether the two Ariai were the same, eh?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Well, it's likely that R' Yosi lived in the 2nd century of the common error, while, lehavdil, Arius that you speak of lived in the 3rd-4th one.

The Real Shliach said...

It's likely because...?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Because Wikipedia says so.

The Real Shliach said...

And their proof?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_ben_Halafta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Well, R' Yossi lived during the times of Hadrian, y"sh, who lived 24 January 76th – 10 July of 138th year of not his lord.

The Real Shliach said...

Well, there you have it.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

But it says in Zohar that tzaddikim, like Hashem, can create the world and are above space or time. So, it is not impossible that R' Yossi spoke to Arius the bishop.

The Real Shliach said...

Or that someone's dates are inaccurate.

Certified Ashkenazi said...

I would rather assume time travel by tzaddikim (I mean, we all travel in time) than inaccuracy on the side of Wikipedia.

The Real Shliach said...

I can certainly see your point of view.

e said...

I would rather assume time travel by tzaddikim (I mean, we all travel in time) than inaccuracy on the side of Wikipedia.

if this was fb, I'd like that comment.

e said...

good to have some trs-ca banter flowing through my inbox again.

Anonymous said...

Did the Rebbe meet the bishop?

The Real Shliach said...

e: I try.

Anon: Did he want to? Because if that's the case, "where there's a will there's a way."

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

CA: I would prefer to assume inaccuracy on the part of wikipedia because it's much more common.

TRS: So, Chabad has found themselves on the wrong side of Nosson Sherman's List of People We Can Quote Even Though They Don't Exist? Welcome to the club.

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: I suppose that it's better than not existing at all, right?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

Much more common than what?

P.G. Wodehouse?

Certified Ashkenazi said...

(sorry, strike the last line.)

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

You are in very, very good company. Or they're in good company with you. Or whatever. Don't be annoyed, be proud.

Feivel ben Mishael said...

I believe that The Rebbe mentions that Arius mentioned in this Rashi rejected trinitarian beliefs and was therefore labeled as a heretic by the church. According to Wikipedia, Arius of Alexandria lived from around 4010 until 4096

The Real Shliach said...

Feivel: I didn't see that in the Sicha, and since I'm writing this on Erev Tisha B'Av, I can't check it out either.

The Real Shliach said...

As per Artscroll, "A 4th century C.E. Christian theologian whose views on religion clashed with standard church teachings; his followers are called Arians. (An analysis of his question to R' Yose appears in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. 34, p. 15.).

Good stuff, eh?

Anonymous said...

I have a question for you guys: After you peruse a sicha with all the nuances, and subtelties, if one would sum-up the crux of the sichah in a sentence or two, would that be considered supreme chutzpah, or would it be appreciated for demonstrating a grasp on the subject matter?

The Real Shliach said...

What would be the issue? As long as you don't say anything in the name of the Rebbe that isn't what he said, what would be the problem?

Anonymous said...

Coming rather late to this, but CA, there are "R. Yosi"s in the Yerushalmi too. Maybe one of those is the one who discussed this with Arius.