Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Dairy days

At some point in the not-so distant past Nemo said that he missed the good 'ol days, when serious discussion took place on this here blog. As I was perusing an old post I noticed that he (check out that beard!) indeed had a point- the conversation on this blog was at one point on a higher intellectual level. What happened? Ich vais nisht. Maybe it was the girls. After all, the first one wasn't even outed until I was with Yossi in CT. Speaking of that, I'm sure we're all very excited that Sebastion and Penelope can finally live ever after happily. Meanwhile, it was just about two short years ago that e, Tanyachaz, and I were planning our trip to Israel. Good times, eh? So much has changed since then, and yet so much has remained the same.

Anyway, way back when, I wrote a post that didn't quite turn out the way it should have. As Nemo commented at the time, "Sorry, was a little hard to follow and there were a number of disconnects in the explanation." Here's a (slightly edited) version.

Yesterday (May 28, 2008) I came across an interesting item in the Sefer Taamei Minhagim Umkorei Hadinim by Rabbi Moshe Sperling. He brings down the Rokeach who states that the consumption of dairy products was, until the giving of the Torah, forbidden, and so when the the Torah was given the Jews celebrated by eating cheesecake.

Why was dairy forbidden in the first place? Because it's Aiver Min Hachai, i.e. a limb from a living animal. I thought, "Hey, that's a really cool answer!" and determined to track down the source, which turned out to be the Gemara in Bechoros, which thanks to Artscroll I didn't have to break my head over. A lot of what I'm going to write now is based on their translation and commentary; as far as I can recall there's no prohibition involved, but if there is....

The Gemara on 6B (2, for those keeping score with their Artscrolls) states that we would have thought that a person can use milk from a non-Kosher animal, because we're allowed to use milk from a Kosher animal. The Gemara brings two reasons for this: The first is that milk is made from blood, which is normally prohibited. When Hashem permitted blood, we would think that he permitted milk (transformed blood) from all creatures. Therefore the Torah has to specifically lay down the law. There is a problem with this answer according to one opinion (look it up), so the Gemara brings the additional rationale that since Hashem permitted us to use a "limb" (milk) from a living Kosher animal, we would think he permitted us to use a "limb" (milk) from any living animal. This is why the Torah has to specify that dairy from a non-Kosher source is prohibited.

Milk being a "limb" is pretty hard to understand, because it seems to be a separate entity; therefore many Acharonim say that the Gemara holds there should be a problem with dairy because it's from an animal that hasn't been shechted properly.

I don't understand why this would answer the question. According to the simple way of learning the Gemara, the problem is that the milk is a "limb", and eating dairy from a live animal would seem to be forbidden. According to the way the Acharonim explain it, the problem is that you're eating something which wasn't shechted properly. It's a problem to eat something which wasn't shechted properly because it's (the milk) considered to be...what? If shechting solves the problem, why is this called Aiver Min Hachai by the Gemara? It's entirely a problem of schechita. The Gemara seems to be saying that the reason we're allowed to eat dairy is because the prohibition of Aiver Min Hachai was relaxed by Hashem in the case of Kosher milk.
The Gemara implies that before Matan Torah dairy from a dead animal was permitted. According to the Acharonim, would that mean that before Matan Torah only dairy from a properly shechted animal was permitted? In general, are non-Jews nowadays allowed to have milk? It would seem that they can only have milk from a dead animal; after all, we got the Torah which allows to have dairy from a live cow, but non-Jews didn't get the Torah. According to the Acharonim, this wouldn't seem to be a problem, because non-Jews are only commanded to not eat a limb from a living animal; they have nothing to do with shechita.

Before the giving of the Torah, what was the issue according to the Acharonim? They say that the issue is shechita. Before Matan Torah, no one kept shechita anyway, because there were no Jews to shecht. In general, with regards to meat, I assume that they ate meat that post-Matan Torah is not permitted. So before Matan Torah, the Acharonim would allow a non-Jew to have dairy from any dead animal, while a Jew could only have from a Kosher animal (remember, they kept all the laws of the Torah before Matan Torah). After Matan Torah, without the Torah's special dispensation, a Jew is only allowed dairy from a properly slaughtered animal. A non-Jew can have dairy from any dead animal, since they don't have a problem with eating non-properly slaughtered animals. With the Torah's dispensation, a Jew can have dairy from a live Kosher animal, though it has not been shechted.

I don't understand how allowing dairy from an animal which has not been properly slaughtered is the same as allowing dairy from a living animal. It seems that the Acharonim are merely allowing us to have dairy from a properly shechted animal.

The simple explanation of the Gemara makes a lot more sense (in my humble [and probably deficient] opinion. Before Matan Torah, all milk from dead animals was permitted; after the giving of the Torah, milk from a live Kosher animal was permitted.

Non-Jews still seem to have a problem, because the Torah did not permit them to have milk from a live animal, whether Kosher or non-Kosher, but this is not my problem.

Anyway, the Gemara asks a simple question: How do we know that the Torah allowed us to have milk from a Kosher animal? It brings several proofs, quickly knocks them away, and ends with three Pesukim from which to learn the dispensation. The first is in 1 Samuel, 17:18, where David was given cheese from his father Yishai for his brothers on the battlefield. This verse only seems to prove that dairy is permitted, but it's not Hashem coming down with fire and brimstone and saying, "Thou mayest eateth the milk of thine beasts!" The next Passuk is from Shemos 3:17, "A land flowing with milk and honey." Would Hashem praise the land with forbidden items? This verse seems to be more in the vein of a command, but it's still not the same. The third Passuk is from Isiah 55:1, where he tells people to go buy and eat milk, implying that it's fine.

90 comments:

A Suede Ḥossid said...

That post was much easier to follow than this one.

Why was there a video of some British dude being murdered? I like how the British call interrogation “an interview”. I can’t imagine KGB calling it that.

The Real Shliach said...

Which post was much easier to follow than this one?

Because that video is narrated by Yossi.

I wasn't aware that the KGB called anything in English.

sarabonne said...

And I quote:
Oh, my dear Cheerio, do not take the last bit of color from this blog and run away into the night! Stay, pray stay, for without your wit and vivacity we should never be the same again.
As for the Nacerima, well, just read it backwards.-TRS, Hibba VIII: Up, down, and all around

Yep, us chicks really do corrupt.

The Real Shliach said...

Sarcasm doesn't go over well online, eh?

And who wouldn't?

Yes.

A Suede Ḥossid said...

Interview is not just an English word. In fact, my sources say it is Eskimo in origin. And since Russians invented Eskimos, it is Russian in origin.

The Real Shliach said...

Who are your sources?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Fech, why can't you write torah as well as you do the impersonator?

Anonymous said...

Why didn't you look at Steinzaltz which is written by a Lubavithcer instead of Arstcroll?

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: you mean, both are incomprehendible, but at least the impersonator makes for good reading?

Anon: 1. There wasn't one handy.

2. Even-Yisrael is a Lubavitcher the same way Jonathan Sacks is a Lubavitcher, which is to say not much.

The Thinker said...

Just thought up a question on a similar topic:

If the Jews had eaten meat until Matan Torah,and only then did they stop because they didn't know the Halavhos, why did they complain to Moshe in Beha'aloscha (shishi)? Meileh they had and didn't eat any, whatever, maybe they didn't want to shecht. But if they did?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

anon: Steinsaltz stopped being a lubavitcher when he got put in cherem. The sad part is, nobody ever told him.

The Real Shliach said...

Thinker: If they did have meat?

Modeh: Tragic, isn't it?

Menashe said...

Is it a common practice by you to refer to talmidei chachomim by (only) their first names?

The Real Shliach said...

Are you referring to Lord Sacks?

The Thinker said...

TRS- if they did already eat meat, then the common answer that the Jews didn't eat meat in the Midbar until the Quail falls away. Or am I mistaken?

The Real Shliach said...

Well, the story in Behaaloscha takes place a whole year after Matan Torah- if you were forced to go vegetarian for a year, you'd probably complain also. Obviously however, this isn't true, because as we also read in this Parsha, the Jews did offer the Pascal lamb in the desert, so obviously they had at least some meat.

I think the answer is as Moshe said to Hashem, that the Jews were looking to complain, and regardless of what they were going to be given they would complain.

Nemo said...

Thank you for digging up that video.

Nemo said...

P.S. I forgot to bring a brush on that trip.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Menashe: only when he doesn't like them.

TRS: Which, that he doesn't know he's in cherem or that he doesn't know he's not a Lubavitcher?

Anonymous said...

Steinsaltz was a kal. That's why the Chabatzker liked him; along with Heshcel, Goron, and many of the JTS people. The love for the kaley daat was unprecedented in Orthodoxy- it's what made the Rebbe unique and so special.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

anon: Do you mind telling us some of your credentials in Torah to be able to make a statement like that about Steinsaltz?

The Real Shliach said...

Nemo: my pleasure.

Modeh: A. Who said I don't like J Sacks?

Huh?

Anon: on this blog, have a little respect.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

A-Generally speaking, that is what is indicated by deliberately omitting a title.

B-Wait a bit. Maybe he'll come back with some of the credentials I asked for.

The Real Shliach said...

A. Far from it- I didn't put much thought in the matter, to be truthful.

B. It's a possibility.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

A-In that case I retract that comment.

Anonymous said...

read Steinzalt's books on parshanut and Dovid Hamelech. If he would have written like that about the Besht, you would conisder him worse than a kal.

A large segement of Orthodox rabbsi view him as a kal. His writings are not accepted in most Chasidic places. In Chabad, they even tolerate his works on Tanya

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

1-I'm kind of a snag and if he said those things about the Besht I'd be nodding in agreement with quite a few of them.

2-I've read his books on parshanut. Have you?

3-Try his Essential Talmud. Then compare it to Mavo Hatalmud. Then tell me which one is better for adult BTs.

Anonymous said...

the real Shliach is an adult BT?

The issue is learning a sefer from a kal dat. Most of Orthodox Judaism takes issue with that.

Chabad - the way it generated under the leadership of the Rebbe - doesn't study works that most of Klal Yisroel consider to be written by Gedolei Olam; simultaneously, they embrace books written by individuals most of Orthodoxy rejects due to their lack of yirat shomayim. That is a weir combination

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

the real Shliach is an adult BT?
Heh! One would hope, no? But seriously, in the sense you meant he isn't. My point was that the Essential Talmud is a book written by a talmid chochom and a very useful one at that.

that most of Klal Yisroel consider to be written by Gedolei Olam;
Most? Like the 55% intermarried in US and more elsewhere?

they embrace books written by individuals most of Orthodoxy rejects due to their lack of yirat shomayim.
Like the תורה תמימה? Not saying that he didn't have יראת שמים, just that he is widely perceived as lacking it in the circles you refer to.

That is a weir combination
No argument there.

Anonymous said...

nitpicking. boring! most of Orthodoxy (we are discussing a question of Deyot, no?)

Typcial Chabad; avoiding the question.

TT wasn't a kal. Brisker Rov didn't think so.

The Real Shliach said...

Anon: Is there any way we can help you?

Also, just like Modeh is not Chabad, I'm not a BT.

And one more thing- if you're going to spend your time bashing Chabad, then I'd ask you to do it elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

I just don't understand how, if the Rebbe cared about Yiddishe neshamos, he had a warm relationship with those who legitimized Conservatism and are responsible for burning more neshamot than Chabad was mikarev to Chabad. Forget it. I will go elsewhere for answers.

Have a nice life and Mazal Tov if today happens to be a Yoma Dipagra or one of your freind' birthdya.


bye bye

The Real Shliach said...

If you were genuinely asking questions then I'm sure you'd get answers.

Anonymous said...

I used to ask very nicely. When no one gave me a decent answer (they weren't even bothered by the question) I realized that there is no answer; it is the sad reality.

The Real Shliach said...

There is no answer? You just haven't asked the right people or the right question. I do however admire your writing-off of an entire segment of the Jewish population.

Anonymous said...

???? which segment did I write off?

The Real Shliach said...

Lubavitch, conservatives, followers of your so-called "kalim", people who know how to spell...

Anonymous said...

I didn't write off Lubavitch. I just pointed out (glaring) flaws that an outsider can never understand.

Now Conservatives didn't destroy neshamot? Is this what the Rebbe taught? Only people from Bney Braqu are messengers of the s"m?

The Real Shliach said...

Did you? I must have been too blinded by your sinas chinam to notice.

People from Bnei Brak and anonymous commenters.

Anonymous said...

and from Monroe, Lakewood, etc.....

The Real Shliach said...

If they're man enough to present a name they're not destroying neshamos.

Anonymous said...

Fine. I will move along to a different member of the kat. Now, where is Mottel when I need him...

The Real Shliach said...

His kid is getting circumcised on Friday- perhaps you'll make an appearance?

Anonymous said...

I am sending a Sliach.

Anonymous said...

shliach

The Real Shliach said...

A real shliach?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

TRS:
1-Let's just answer the guy. For all we know he's legitimate.
2-Mazel tov to Mottel. Where's the bris?

anon:Nitpicking? Where?
2- The Brisker Rov did not think the Torah Temimah was a kal, but we aren't talking about the Brisker Rov. We're talking about the chevra you seem to think are the only legitimate Jews. They definitely think he's a kal, or is there some other reason I can't find Mekor Boruch in any seforim store, shul, or yeshiva in the tristate area?

3-Define conservative.

e said...

Anon: where did you get your information from? Since when does Chabad like Heschel, Goron, and other JTS people? With which Conservatives did the Rebbe have a "warm relationship"?

I don't mind if you bash Chabad, as long as you get your facts straight. Chabad has many problems, but liking Conservatives too much is not one of them.

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: 1. A legitimate what?
2. I'm sure it'll be up on his blog in due time.

Anonymous said...

You can buy Mikor Burech in Eichlers. They also have Leiberman's Tosefta.


Define Mikor Burech.

Anonymous said...

"The Brisker Rov did not think the Torah Temimah was a kal, but we aren't talking about the Brisker Rov. We're talking about the chevra you seem to think are the only legitimate Jews. They definitely think he's a kal, or is there some other reason I can't find Mekor Boruch in any seforim store, shul, or yeshiva in the tristate area?"

OK. I lost interest pointing out pointed criticism in those who practice hiskashrus. This topic interests me more....

The Brisker Rov was a Snag hero. If he didn't think he was a kal, no one else does. (BTW, Reb Yoilesh cites it in Valoel Moshe - Torah Temimah that is). He did say that "schrebin, schreibt ehr mudnah, uhber ehr iz given an ehrlicher''.

Anonymous said...

e mayn tayerah,

Ask around and do your research. Find about about the Rebbe's interactions with Heshcel, Leiberman and others (the warmth was mutual). I heard this from loyal Chabad people who actually think it's a maylah, because the Rebbe was such an Ohev Yisroel or whatever.

I don't know, but I wonder about many of the Chabad people out of the tristate area interact with Conservative and Reform clery; do they use their temples, do they have interfaith dialouge. I assume they are more liberal then your typical Snag; this is just a huntch based on the Rebbe's tolerance for their leaders.

The Real Shliach said...

The moment you start using your own assumptions in an argument you've lost.

Anonymous said...

I hear.

I have a hard time being convinced that I lost (because I am a Snag and because) one of your friends asks me to define Conservatism and is trying to defend the Rebbe (he obviously knows it's true or is chosed that it is). That in itself is very revealing.

I will leave drooling over politicians, trying to impress and also be-in-the-face of goyim, not understanding what gulos means and Zionism, for another day.

For now, remember the Rebbe said "do good deeds".

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I asked you to define conservative because many yeshivaleit aren't clear on the lines between conservative, reform, old style haskala, and people they don't like. The other day I had a bochur tell me his rebbi told him R' Hirsch was conservative. (The movement didn't really exist in his day and definitely not in Germany).

You can buy Mikor Burech in Eichlers
BP or Flatbush? Neither had as of January. And for the last time: I AM NOT A LUBAVITCHER. You have never seen me in person, so you don't even have the excuse of being fooled by the beard.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry for insinuating that you are a member of that kat. Please accept my apologies.

I am defining JTS as Conservative.

I am genuinely suprised tht they don't have it over there - they have much worse. Unless they punkt don't have it.

I have seen it in some houses so I assume it's not to hard to get a hold of. Maybe even Judaica plaza in Lakewood, they even carry a lot of Rabbi Soloviethick's works. Ask for it if you don't find it on teh top shelf:)

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Re the sect: no problem.

Re the sefer: Well, I've got to try. You think they'll have his other other book?

Anonymous said...

I don't know. Sorry.

e said...

I personally don't think it's a ma'aleh to disrespect people with whom you disagree on religious issues, but apparently you do. Guess what! Most Lubavtichers do too. They just disguise their disrespect for PR reasons. The shluchim who pal-around with heterodox clergy all spit at them behind their back.

The Rebbe wouldn't spit at anybody behind their back, but he had respect only for people, not their ideologies. The Rebbe would correspond with anybody, and of course he would always be cordial (except for that snag who came by dollars and bugged the Rebbe about Lubavitchers not sleeping in the Sukkah and the J4J guy who came for dollars with his J4J literature). That doesn't mean that the Rebbe respected the ideologies of all the nuts who wrote/came to him.

e said...

Isn't it ironic that I'm bringing up Lubavtichers' collective superiority complex in their defense?

Of course if somebody would start praising Lubavitchers by saying how open-minded they are I would have said the same thing.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

e: those are two stories i don't know. do share...

e said...

Some dude came to the Rebbe during dollars and started bugging him why Chabad doesn't sleep in the Sukkah. The Rebbe basically told him that he (the questioner) is just looking to make trouble and isn't really interested in finding anything out. (Hmmm. Sounds like a nameless person we know.) The whole conversation is on video. When I was in Chicago Mesivta, somebody once copied the transcript of the conversation from some book and we all watched the video together in Zal during lunch one day.

The j4j story is a little more muddled in my mind. I can't remember if I saw the video or if I heard the story or maybe both. Anyhow, some j4j dude came to the Rebbe and gave him some literature. (For those who are experts on the Rebbe's relationship with conservative rabbis but don't know what would usually happen at dollars: people would often give the Rebbe books or other things during dollars.) The Rebbe said that he's taking the book just so that the dude won't be able to give the book to anyone else.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

where can i find the video for the first story?

Anonymous said...

so they do pall around with Heterdox clergy? I guess I should trust my instincts.

Don't rely on Chabadtker transcripts - they tamper with it. Watch the video with Rav Kahanah on youtube. (You inadvertanly injected your interpratation of the Rebbe's holy words in your retelling the event)

Watch him tell the Rebbe that he didn't know that it is ostensibly Minhag Chabad, to which the Rebbe replied "they know". Which is interesting, because if he didn't know (he had some shaychus with Chabad) how does the Rebbe know that they know - nu nu. When he asks the Rebbe if in Shulchan Urach Harav it is so written, watch the Rebbe talk over him and ignore him.

Yet, when the Rebbe confuses Reb Chaim Volozhiner with Reb Itzeleh Vol. when he corrects the Rebbe (Reb Chaim V never went with a Chabad Rebbe to Pertersburg to be mivatel the gizeyros, it was Reb Itzeleh) the Rebbe accepts the correction and starts saying "Reb Itzeleh" (sometimes "Reb Yitzchok"). Watch the Rebbe reverting back, two minutes later, to "Reb Chaim Vol.". The Rebbe apparently only acknowledged corrections in a limited manner?

The Rebbe said:

1) The ___ was behind the war of Reb Chaim Vol. (but it's the Bnei Braq people that are just rehashing "old fights", right?)

2) How Chabad got them out of Shanghay. What did he mean by that?

3)About them laundering money in a bank in NY and not giving it to Kahanah. I am not sure what that has to do with a Succah.

4) How they do nothing about the kids that don't know a tzurah of an aleph (the Rebbe qualified it: they speak the language, but they don't know a tzurah of a Toradikeh "Aleph"). He ignored Chinuch Atzmuy and how "Kotler" used to be soyvel bizyones to raise money by disinterested gvirim for unkonwn Sefardi kids in Israel, and the Snags bichllal were very involved in C"A (I am unaware of the Rebbe's involvement in that)

The Succah issue is much deeper than the Succah. It's a subtle one. It's how the Rebbe had all his followers believing that his svarah (about being mitztar about not being mitzter, etc) is a good enough "ptur".

The Rebbe Rashab sometimes slept in the Succah.

The Real Shliach said...

e: The J4J story is also available on video, and basically, the Rebbe took the pamphlet and then asked for a second one, which the guy gave. The Rebbe then said that he asked for the second one so that there'd be one less to give out to Jews.

Anon: And you know that the Rebbe Rashab sometimes slept in a Sukkah from where?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

anon: If you care so much about mitzvas succa, just arrange to speak at a yeshiva succah in CH. I guarantee you'll be zocheh to have many lubavitchers sleeping in the succa on your cheshbon.

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: lol

sarabonne said...

subscribing

Anonymous said...

I don't remember who it was who slept with the Rashab. It could have been Rabbi Landa.

I think the Rebbe's response to that tortured soul was very thoughtful (a sick person doesn't realize, etc.) The person must have been so far gone not to have been inspired by spending just a few moments with the Rebbe. I wonder where he is today.

The Real Shliach said...

Sara: That took a while.

Anon: Well, bring me a source please.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Funny about that story. My mother does the same thing, except that she usually asks for the whole stack.

e said...

Modeh: your mom is a superchasid!

Anon: This is getting silly. If you're upset that shluchim are too friendly with heterodox rabbis, so be it. It's really not that horrible a sin.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

my mother is a bigger snag(ess) than i am.

Anonymous said...

It's viewed as a horrible sin by most of Orthodoxy - just not Chabad. The same Chabad that looks at Orthodox clergy with less reverance than the rest of Orthodoxy. Dichotomy

The Real Shliach said...

A. As e said previously, the point is that we're dealing with Jews, not with titles.

B. What dichotomy?

Anonymous said...

Right, you are dealing with people, who just happen to have destroyed thousands of neshamos. Like I said before.

My point with the dichotomy is to highlight how Chabad is ideologicaly michutz lamachinah (besides for in actions they are not, traditionaly, mishtatef with the tzar of the Rabim)

The Real Shliach said...

Nonsense.

You know what they say, Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism.

Anonymous said...

I am not sure about that. I think it's more than just a religioun. When their kids go off, loy alehnu, and their daughters dress like the people the buchorim are exposed to on Fridays - they give up adherence to the Eibeshter before their loyalty to the Rebbe. That means the hold he has on you guys is very freaky - to say the least.

The Real Shliach said...

Why do you hate so much? Is it because you're jealous?

Anonymous said...

Yes. I am harbor jelousy in my Snaggy heart to the Rebbe. I can't fargin him.

The Real Shliach said...

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

Anonymous said...

I am in good company. The Gedolie Olam who opposed the Rebbe only did it because they were jelous of his brilliance and his ability to inspire people by having them come to him and have him talk at them.

The Real Shliach said...

Apparently.

Anonymous said...

Watch your mouth.

The Real Shliach said...

Hey darling, as I've told you before, if you want your own blog...

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Anon: Do you have a point with your remarks about lubavitch women's fashion or are you stam hocking to help TRS reach the 100 comment mark?

If the former I suggest you go here.

Anonymous said...

Modeh

That site is testimony to the Rebbe's legacy.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

What is, a guy with a bear and tzitzis out?

e said...

Anon: I think you should join the Westboro Baptist Chruch. They could use a hater like you.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Anonymous said...

Yes. Chabad people have weird bodily movements and are more effeminate -but I wouldn't take it that far.