Friday, December 25, 2009

Disenfranchised kids

Interesting that Hashem spoke to Yaakov all the time, but not to his kids. For example, in the previous several parshas, we've found lots of interesting stories with the tribes, including many questionable decisions that they made. You would think that the age of G-dly communication has ended, and now people have been left on earth with only their own intuition and abilities. Then what happens? G-d comes to Jacob and has a whole conversation (Genesis 46, 2)! Where was G-d when Joseph was missing (yes, I know the Sicha that's brought down in the Gutnick Chumash on this very point), or when Judah had the whole thing with Tamar, or when Yosef was in Egypt, or when the brothers came down to him? In fact, this appears to be one of the few cessations in prophecy during the entire Tanach! What's most interesting, to me at least, is that the three forefathers all talked to G-d on a regular basis. Moses, Aaron, David, and Solomon, all talked to G-d on a regular basis. Yet do we ever find that he ever spoke with any if the twelve tribes?

36 comments:

Nemo said...

Would you speak to those sleazy guys?

The Real Shliach said...

Then again, I'm not G-d...

Eliezer said...

What has prompted you to suddenly enter "question our forefathers" mode?

The Real Shliach said...

Once I entered into "Do Chitas in front of computer" mode it came easily enough.

Crawling Axe said...

I always thought of G-d as the "strong silent type". Doesn't speak unless He has to.

Yossi said...

well, you know, on most family plans, you can't get more than five or six phones, and perhaps the 'friends and family' package couldn't cover all 12 of them. or maybe there weren't enough cell towers in Canaan

e said...

i agree with nemo. Who said the disenfranchised children were that holy to begin with?

The Real Shliach said...

CA: Ahh, right. Still, for someone who never speaks, he sure had a lot to tell Moses.

Yossi: Still, you would think that the guy who created the whole world could afford to buy one of the wheels on his chariot's kids a couple iPhones.

e: Yosef Hatzaddik...

e said...

who made up that term? Not the author(s) of Genesis!

The Real Shliach said...

The same way I believe Genesis I believe that.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

ayen what i said to e about deuteronomy. it applies here too.

The Real Shliach said...

Refresh my memory please?

The archivist said...

(Regarding Igros)
Modeh B'Miktsas said...
Am I a karaite if I mention all the various prohibitions against these things in Deuteronomy?

December 2, 2009 9:35 AM


Nemo said...
No, just a Snag :)

December 2, 2009 9:37 AM


e said...
Modeh: Your attitude is backwards. We believe Deuteronomy because of the Rebbe. So if your understanding of Deuteronomy takes people away from the Rebbe, it's obviously wrong.

December 2, 2009 12:31 PM

Modeh B'Miktsas said...
e: Ah, but if you believe in the rebbe because of Deuteronomy that's different. (Of course then you're a snag)

December 3, 2009 12:06 PM

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3989429744464051200&postID=1891642980636123605&pli=1

The Real Shliach said...

Now I remember why I wasn't involved in that particular exchange.

Leo de Toot said...

Dear Mr. R.S. Regarding G-d's discussions with our forefathers, how come Yaakov wasn't consistently referred to as Yisrael after his name change while Avraham was (i.e. referred to only as Avraham following his name change)? Interesting point, no? LdT.

Crawling Axe said...

nu

The Real Shliach said...

LdT: I remember there's an answer, but I don't remember what the answer is.

CA: nu what?

Crawling Axe said...

Seemed like an appropriate response. "Same story, different versions. And all are true!" Sorry, felt like quoting Pirate of the Caribbean. Both Yisroel and Yakov are true.

e said...

ldt: http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/246640/jewish/Double-Identity.htm

(I sent links to this article a bajillion times, but I don't think I ever read it from beginning to end.)

Crawling Axe said...

There is another interesting question. It says "Avram Avram" or "Yakov Yakov", but never "Yitzchok Yitzchok". Why?

e said...

cuz god didn't like him? cuz they got a different copy-editor for that chapter?

The Real Shliach said...

e: Thanks.

CA: There's an answer to that too.

Crawling Axe said...

Because there is only one fear.

e said...

but there isn't only one. There's yirah ila and yirah tatah.

Also, there's only one truth, and for precisely that reason it says "moshe, moshe"

Crawling Axe said...

But the point is that the two fears are the same. G-d created thunder so that people fear Him.

Crawling Axe said...

There is only one truth?

Crawling Axe said...

What about Betzalel?

e said...

s'shteit that the Torah says "Moshe, Moshe" to show that moshe, midas ha'emes, is the same both above and below.

Crawling Axe said...

OK, but it doesn't mean there is only one truth. Because we find, in fact, that there is also the truth of Betzalel.

On the other hand, there is only one fear.

(I may be totally off here.)

e said...

i fear that you may. Where'd you get this idea that there's only one fear? In general, in Chassidus it's hard to say that something is "one" without providing any context, because "one" is a mightily hard-to-define word in chassidus and can mean different things.

Crawling Axe said...

Because Hashem had kavana for people to fear Him so that they do mitzvos, He created thunder. So people who experience the fear of thunder and therefore fear for their livelihood and do mitzvos egocentrically and people who do mitzvos our of higher fear of Hashem do in fact tap in into the same shoresh of fear.

This was brought down as an explanation of Rebbe Rashab's saying that fear of punishment being a source of one's yiras shomayim is "loi rah gomur" and comes from klipas nogah. And an illustration of this principle was Yitzchok Yitzchok.

e said...

nu, so there are different types of fear. Sure, deep down they're all the same. But if you dig deep, all truths are the same and loves are the same.

So it's hard to say that all X's are one but different Y's are different.

Crawling Axe said...

Right. But there was takeh an involved explanation why the fear is the same, while of ahavah there are in fact two distinct levels. Maybe I will go back and look for it (probably not).

Crawling Axe said...

I didn't find the exact place, but I think the point is that with ahava (or mitzvois t'aseh), there can be lishmo and shelo lishmo. If you're doing something for yourself, it's sholosh klipos tmeios. In fact, even if you're learning Torah loi lishmo, A"R you have to do teshuva. And then there is doing lishmo. So, there are two distinct madregas.

With fear it's different. If you're not doing an aveira for ulterior motives, or you're not doing an aveira because of your awe and respect of Eibeshter, it's all good. Even the first level comes from the part of klipah which is noigah.

Crawling Axe said...

A"R says*

Crawling Axe said...

Btw, in the same place, Rambam is mentioned where he defends the Yemenite Jews with such chessed. And then calls people who criticized them "fools and monkeys on two feet".

(This is re: AY to frum yidden.)