Tonight I was testing Dovid Greenberg (whose sister just got engaged to Dovid Russ) on a blatt of kesubos when rejoicing struck. Or something like that. The page he was saying by heart contained the gemarah's view on women and alcohol. Is there a better topic for the twenty second day of shevat? Here we combine those two loves of every detroiter-the mama and alcohol, in one easy package. Which brings up something Rabbi Schapiro, our noble leader and babysitter to the masses, said today. Seems like Meir Harlig once called up Bentzi Shemtov and proposed the perfect bochur for his daughter-chassidish, disheveled, a regular alcoholic! Could there be a better addition to the Shemtov clan? Once Rabbi Chaim had finished describing how Bentzi told Meir him in no uncertain terms that nothing was happening our Rabbi said, "The Shemtovs may encourage bochurim to be 'detroiters', but they know that they're nuts; for them it's all a show, and when it comes real life they know what's going on."
Anyway, the Mishnah on 63A in Kesubos conspicuously does not state that a wife is to be given a stipend of wine. This supports the assertion of R' Elazar. Go look up the gemarah for full details. This seems to contradict a baraisa which states that if a woman is accustomed to wine then we give her a stipend of it. The gemarah answers that a woman who is accustomed to wine is different; she receives one cup, while one who is unaccustomed receives two cups.
The gemarah immediately states that this makes no sense, and says, in the name of Abaye, that a woman who is accustomed to drink two cups in front of her husband gets one when not in his presence, while one who only normally drinks one when in his presence gets none when she's nowhere near him.
The gemarah cites a related baraisa which says "One cup of wine is good for a woman. Two will result in her being disgraced, three will cause her to verbally solicit her husband for marital relations (which is uncharacteristic for a woman to do, and which will result in negative effects on the kiddies produced), and after four cups she'll solicit even a donkey in the marketplace and she is not particular."
Rava said that they taught this baraisa only where the husband is not with her, but when he is, we are not concerned.
Good shtuff, eh? Yup folks, this is your religion!
Sunday, February 15, 2009
The soaked woman
Posted by Just like a guy at 8:31 PM
Labels: Halacha, Lubavitch, Rabbi Chaim Schapiro
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86 comments:
Just delete this post before anyone else read it.
The Shemtov story's good though.
what's wrong with this post? The gemarah not good enough for you?
I'm waiting for one of the five detroiters here in Motown smicha to come in and rip my head off.
Women shouldn't drink. How the heck are you supposed to stay tznius and aidel and WHATEVER if you're getting vomit all over your tailored skirt and freshly blow dried sheitel? Hmm?
How do you manage your sheitel?
Um, well people think my hair is a sheitel.
I wash it with shampoo and conditioner.
Ahh. Excellent.
Do you use conditioner? I hope not. Boys using conditioner is like boys wearing $30 socks or something.
It's just WRONG.
No, I don't use conditioner.
Where does one buy thirty dollar socks? That's nuts!
Praise the Holy One Blessed Be He.
No idea. I just made up the number. But you get the idea...
Woohoo!
Anyone who buys something like that should be shot. On the other hand, I'd like to be the guy selling those...
It's probably a sweet business.
Go to bed.
What does 'solicit a donkey in the marketplace' mean?
Do I not want to know?
Is this why girls don't learn gemara?
Yes, LE7, this is why they don't teach girls gemara. It's a pretty funny b'raisa, though.
I guess I'll never find out- I hate the taste of alcohol, so I don't drink. I wonder what said woman does on Pesach, if her husband isn't near her? What if leil haseder....? Oy vey....
TRS, I'm not going to rip your head off, but remember that this is the internet, and a certain amount of tznius is thus required.
Everyone is calling the Tznius Police. I'm guessing I don't get the post because I can't find the parts that are lacking in decency.
The Rambam in hilchos aveilus states that an avel should not drink alcohol. He goes on to say that an avel can have up to 10 drinks (3 before the food 4 during and 3 after) which is mashma that the first 10 drinks don't count. Therefore when the baraisa says a woman is allowed one drink it really means 11 and so on.
LE7: what does solicit a donkey in the marketplace place mean? Ever heard of bestiality?
You probably did not want to know what.
Chanie: please explain your issue to me-is it a bad thing to yafutze maanosecha chutzah?
Modeh: wow. Figuring out what a baraisa means based on a rambam? That takes balls.
you say this after giving me a hard time with what i said about weddings before pesach.
There's a difference between fakewood saying something and the Talmud saying something.
thats not how it works in lakewood.
Oh ewwww... and yes I have. I went to public school after all.
What did fakewood say about weddings before Pesach? I'm too lazy to go find it myself.
i was explaining why people want to get married asap.
TRS- you can just use more eidel language.
"Solicit" and "bad effects on kiddies produced" sounds about as aidel as one can get when discussing such subject material.
Nah, this post is just wrong, no degree of "eidel language" will kasher it.
Fakewood has a blog?
i dont have a blog that require to much effort. it was in a comment.
Dovid and chanie: I still don't get what the problem is.
Whatever.
I think everyone else gets it.
Nu, express yourself! Enunciate your objections clearly and I can deal with them. Otherwise, what do you want me to do?
Basically, just because something is written in the gemara doesn't mean you should come write it here. If the content is for mature audiences, don't present it to an audience of bochrim and bochurettes.
When we come back to the Rambam's sefer nashim hilchos issurei biah next year are you going to post the laws of nidah?
sefer kedusha*
Uh, yeah.
Basically, TRS, you lack a certain chush, and while I think it would be improved by better language, Dovid seems to think you should just try to be appropriate. He doesn't realize that this is something which will not happen overnight....
Normally, TRS is appropriate. I just thought this post was too much. I guess its subjective.
But for example, I thought the story he said about socratese was acceptable, because it was giving over a point. It was something that could be said by farbrengen. This is not something that would be given over at farbrengen.
It is usually appropriate. But this post still shows that he lacks said chush.
chanie: stop being such a twat
anonymous-
watch your language buddy there are some lines you shouldn't cross.
i guess i lack chush
i think you got beat up by a lot of girls as a kid.
Chanie: what chush are you talking about? Common sense? Because if that's the case, then I'm maskim.
so the point of this was that girls can drink?
and chanie, dovid - where else are girls going to learn all the good stuff? my brother is constantly dropping interesting tidbits in my ear, but he usually doesn't remember where he learned it...
TRS- lol
cheerio- you can open a gemara just like the guys. Anyways, this doesn't apply to us nowadays, for our generation the limit is four shots across the board :)
dang!
Cheerio: the point was that women can't drink. I thought that was obvious.
nope. i was getting confused with all the husbands being out of town, and the donkeys in the market stuff...
Nashim daatam kaalos.
What does that got to do with anything?
um, um.... trying frantically to come up with an appropriate hebrew rejoinder and realizing that the fact that it's taking so long is not really helpful to my side of the argument! women of the blogging world, come to my aid!
um, um.... trying frantically to come up with an appropriate hebrew rejoinder and realizing that the fact that it's taking so long is not really helpful to my side of the argument! women of the blogging world, come to my aid!
HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I finally got it.
TRS, very clever!
Thankyou LE7. Cheerio, I'll be here all night.
Cheerio- learn it for yourself. If your brother sees fit to tell you, fine. But publishing it on the internet?
TRS- the chush I meant was a chush of eidelkeit, perhaps even tznius...(one good reason why I wouldn't even think to date you- puke).
the lady doth protest too much.... ;)
Then, Cheerio, so be it.
As I tried to post last night,
TRS: it's ktzaros
Cheerio: If you want to learn gmara there are 3 options
1-go drisha and learn watered down versions of selected sugyas taught by an am ha'aretz/am ha'artza who can't use the Artscroll because it "assumes to much of a talmudic background"
2- go YCT and get taught agenda while a gmara sits unopened on your desk. (WARNING: keep your head up they might give you smicha when you aren't looking)
3- Find a friend who goes/went to YU and beg.
As I tried to post last night,
TRS: it's ktzaros
Cheerio: If you want to learn gmara there are 3 options
1-go drisha and learn watered down versions of selected sugyas taught by an am ha'aretz/am ha'artza who can't use the Artscroll because it "assumes to much of a talmudic background"
2- go YCT and get taught agenda while a gmara sits unopened on your desk. (WARNING: keep your head up they might give you smicha when you aren't looking)
3- Find a friend who goes/went to YU and beg.
Chanie: the truth can not wait for tznius.
Cheerio: agreed.
Modeh: YCT?
Huh? Why am I so confused?
I think I mentioned something about nashim daatam kaalos last night...
I totally saw that coming. Totally.
TRS: repeat, ktzaros see somewhere at the beginning of perek shlosha she'achlu.
YCT- Yeshiva Chovevei Torah. It bears the same relationship to it's name as the Holy ROman Emperor did to his.
Sorry about the vague reference but that's the great advantage of being a litvak. Your rebbe was famous for quoting daf amud and line (if I was a snag I would say big deal, so could one of my mesivta rebbeim) but we have an excuse for vagueness since Rav Elya Lopian used to say things like "it was at the bottom of an amud alef in psachim and the lines were shaped like such and such and it began right next to R' Akiva Eiger." Then when someone was foolish enough to ask "but rebbi what daf?" He would say "that takes a baki."
Dovid: she was asking for it.
Modeh: again- I don't get what you're trying to say.
Does it really make snags mad when you ask, "who the heck is elya lopian?"
Fine, so be it. But beware: I know more than you think. I simply was asking what your conundrum of a comment meant.
What part? I thought you didn't know what YCT stood for, so I told you.
The rest is about your constant misquotation of "nashim daatam ktzaros"
And yes, it does make them mad because they have no clue either and don't want to be put on the spot.
Chanie: you know more than I think about what?
Modeh: I didn't know what it stood for, but I know what it is.
Oh, sorry.
LOL. So who is he?
About everything.
I'm highly skeptical of your claims. Until I get some verification...privately of course.
Eh, you just want to email me.
Actually, I have bigger and better taavos.
Hah. That comment made me want to kvell. Should I insert TRS' favorite roshei tavos now?
VD"L
Good, because I'm not interested.
I can only safely say this because I am in an undisclosed location in a different state than TRS and a different country than chanie, otherwise I would get egged to death, but you two sound like the lead characters in every cheap adventure movie ever made who spend half the dialog talking about how they aren't interested in each other. Then the last scene is their wedding.
Re Rav Elya: Nu!! How can you not know who Rav Elya Lopian was?! Shaygetz!
You will get egged and should get egged. Just because he wants to email me, while pretending to be chassidish by not linking to girls' blogs...and I refuse to email a bochur (ew) who isn't my chassan, and who I wouldn't date for five minutes unless I was paid $1000 per minute....and that he keeps on pushing, and I'm glad I'm nowhere near the creep....does not mean we'll get married. But nice one.
Modeh: Sorry, not happening.
Yeah, I've been called worse. So who is he?
Chanie: I didn't want to email you, I wanted you to email me. Big difference.
And thanks for the haskamos-when a crazy person says these kinds of things about you, it means you must be doing something right.
Alright lets drop it.
Man, you're boring.
fine, please continue.
Without Chanie to abuse it's no fun.
TRS- If I'm crazy, at least it's in a more kedushadik way than if you're crazy.
If you like, I can insult you worse.
You wanted me to email you. Ah, I see. And why would that be if you didn't want to respond? Perhaps you just didn't want to be blamed for starting. Too bad.
If you're having fun with this, perhaps I should drop out, because I don't like giving people like you fun.
Rav Elya Lopian is a deceased ROsh Yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael who wrote many mussar sfarim which apparently enhance many people's avodas hashem but just make me want to puke. I forgot where he was RY so I guess the snags can get even angrier at me than they are already.
Chanie: I'm not having fun, though I do appreciate all the extra page views this is getting me, but yeah, feel free to drop out any time.
Modeh: Hmm.
Ah, I see. So then don't say it's fun.
Or maybe it is fun. Who knows?
Takeh.
Good.
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