Sunday, February 15, 2009

The soaked woman

Tonight I was testing Dovid Greenberg (whose sister just got engaged to Dovid Russ) on a blatt of kesubos when rejoicing struck. Or something like that. The page he was saying by heart contained the gemarah's view on women and alcohol. Is there a better topic for the twenty second day of shevat? Here we combine those two loves of every detroiter-the mama and alcohol, in one easy package. Which brings up something Rabbi Schapiro, our noble leader and babysitter to the masses, said today. Seems like Meir Harlig once called up Bentzi Shemtov and proposed the perfect bochur for his daughter-chassidish, disheveled, a regular alcoholic! Could there be a better addition to the Shemtov clan? Once Rabbi Chaim had finished describing how Bentzi told Meir him in no uncertain terms that nothing was happening our Rabbi said, "The Shemtovs may encourage bochurim to be 'detroiters', but they know that they're nuts; for them it's all a show, and when it comes real life they know what's going on."

Anyway, the Mishnah on 63A in Kesubos conspicuously does not state that a wife is to be given a stipend of wine. This supports the assertion of R' Elazar. Go look up the gemarah for full details. This seems to contradict a baraisa which states that if a woman is accustomed to wine then we give her a stipend of it. The gemarah answers that a woman who is accustomed to wine is different; she receives one cup, while one who is unaccustomed receives two cups.
The gemarah immediately states that this makes no sense, and says, in the name of Abaye, that a woman who is accustomed to drink two cups in front of her husband gets one when not in his presence, while one who only normally drinks one when in his presence gets none when she's nowhere near him.
The gemarah cites a related baraisa which says "One cup of wine is good for a woman. Two will result in her being disgraced, three will cause her to verbally solicit her husband for marital relations (which is uncharacteristic for a woman to do, and which will result in negative effects on the kiddies produced), and after four cups she'll solicit even a donkey in the marketplace and she is not particular."
Rava said that they taught this baraisa only where the husband is not with her, but when he is, we are not concerned.

Good shtuff, eh? Yup folks, this is your religion!

91 comments:

Dovid said...

Just delete this post before anyone else read it.

Dovid said...

The Shemtov story's good though.

The Real Shliach said...

what's wrong with this post? The gemarah not good enough for you?

I'm waiting for one of the five detroiters here in Motown smicha to come in and rip my head off.

le7 said...

Women shouldn't drink. How the heck are you supposed to stay tznius and aidel and WHATEVER if you're getting vomit all over your tailored skirt and freshly blow dried sheitel? Hmm?

The Real Shliach said...

How do you manage your sheitel?

le7 said...

Um, well people think my hair is a sheitel.

I wash it with shampoo and conditioner.

The Real Shliach said...

Ahh. Excellent.

le7 said...

Do you use conditioner? I hope not. Boys using conditioner is like boys wearing $30 socks or something.

It's just WRONG.

The Real Shliach said...

No, I don't use conditioner.

Where does one buy thirty dollar socks? That's nuts!

le7 said...

Praise the Holy One Blessed Be He.

No idea. I just made up the number. But you get the idea...

The Real Shliach said...

Woohoo!

Anyone who buys something like that should be shot. On the other hand, I'd like to be the guy selling those...

le7 said...

It's probably a sweet business.

Go to bed.

le7 said...

What does 'solicit a donkey in the marketplace' mean?

Do I not want to know?

Is this why girls don't learn gemara?

chanie said...

Yes, LE7, this is why they don't teach girls gemara. It's a pretty funny b'raisa, though.

I guess I'll never find out- I hate the taste of alcohol, so I don't drink. I wonder what said woman does on Pesach, if her husband isn't near her? What if leil haseder....? Oy vey....

TRS, I'm not going to rip your head off, but remember that this is the internet, and a certain amount of tznius is thus required.

le7 said...

Everyone is calling the Tznius Police. I'm guessing I don't get the post because I can't find the parts that are lacking in decency.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

The Rambam in hilchos aveilus states that an avel should not drink alcohol. He goes on to say that an avel can have up to 10 drinks (3 before the food 4 during and 3 after) which is mashma that the first 10 drinks don't count. Therefore when the baraisa says a woman is allowed one drink it really means 11 and so on.

The Real Shliach said...

LE7: what does solicit a donkey in the marketplace place mean? Ever heard of bestiality?

You probably did not want to know what.

Chanie: please explain your issue to me-is it a bad thing to yafutze maanosecha chutzah?

Modeh: wow. Figuring out what a baraisa means based on a rambam? That takes balls.

fakewood inc. said...

you say this after giving me a hard time with what i said about weddings before pesach.

The Real Shliach said...

There's a difference between fakewood saying something and the Talmud saying something.

fakewood inc. said...

thats not how it works in lakewood.

le7 said...

Oh ewwww... and yes I have. I went to public school after all.

What did fakewood say about weddings before Pesach? I'm too lazy to go find it myself.

fakewood inc. said...

i was explaining why people want to get married asap.

chanie said...

TRS- you can just use more eidel language.

le7 said...

"Solicit" and "bad effects on kiddies produced" sounds about as aidel as one can get when discussing such subject material.

Dovid said...

Nah, this post is just wrong, no degree of "eidel language" will kasher it.

Fakewood has a blog?

fakewood inc. said...

i dont have a blog that require to much effort. it was in a comment.

The Real Shliach said...

Dovid and chanie: I still don't get what the problem is.

Dovid said...

Whatever.
I think everyone else gets it.

The Real Shliach said...

Nu, express yourself! Enunciate your objections clearly and I can deal with them. Otherwise, what do you want me to do?

Dovid said...

Basically, just because something is written in the gemara doesn't mean you should come write it here. If the content is for mature audiences, don't present it to an audience of bochrim and bochurettes.
When we come back to the Rambam's sefer nashim hilchos issurei biah next year are you going to post the laws of nidah?

Dovid said...

sefer kedusha*

chanie said...

Uh, yeah.
Basically, TRS, you lack a certain chush, and while I think it would be improved by better language, Dovid seems to think you should just try to be appropriate. He doesn't realize that this is something which will not happen overnight....

Dovid said...

Normally, TRS is appropriate. I just thought this post was too much. I guess its subjective.

But for example, I thought the story he said about socratese was acceptable, because it was giving over a point. It was something that could be said by farbrengen. This is not something that would be given over at farbrengen.

chanie said...

It is usually appropriate. But this post still shows that he lacks said chush.

Anonymous said...

chanie: stop being such a twat

fakewood inc. said...

anonymous-
watch your language buddy there are some lines you shouldn't cross.

Anonymous said...

i guess i lack chush

fakewood inc. said...

i think you got beat up by a lot of girls as a kid.

The Real Shliach said...

Chanie: what chush are you talking about? Common sense? Because if that's the case, then I'm maskim.

Cheerio said...

so the point of this was that girls can drink?
and chanie, dovid - where else are girls going to learn all the good stuff? my brother is constantly dropping interesting tidbits in my ear, but he usually doesn't remember where he learned it...

Dovid said...

TRS- lol
cheerio- you can open a gemara just like the guys. Anyways, this doesn't apply to us nowadays, for our generation the limit is four shots across the board :)

Cheerio said...

dang!

The Real Shliach said...

Cheerio: the point was that women can't drink. I thought that was obvious.

Cheerio said...

nope. i was getting confused with all the husbands being out of town, and the donkeys in the market stuff...

The Real Shliach said...

Nashim daatam kaalos.

le7 said...

What does that got to do with anything?

Cheerio said...

um, um.... trying frantically to come up with an appropriate hebrew rejoinder and realizing that the fact that it's taking so long is not really helpful to my side of the argument! women of the blogging world, come to my aid!

Cheerio said...

um, um.... trying frantically to come up with an appropriate hebrew rejoinder and realizing that the fact that it's taking so long is not really helpful to my side of the argument! women of the blogging world, come to my aid!

le7 said...

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I finally got it.

TRS, very clever!

The Real Shliach said...

Thankyou LE7. Cheerio, I'll be here all night.

chanie said...

Cheerio- learn it for yourself. If your brother sees fit to tell you, fine. But publishing it on the internet?

TRS- the chush I meant was a chush of eidelkeit, perhaps even tznius...(one good reason why I wouldn't even think to date you- puke).

Cheerio said...

the lady doth protest too much.... ;)

chanie said...

Then, Cheerio, so be it.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

As I tried to post last night,
TRS: it's ktzaros
Cheerio: If you want to learn gmara there are 3 options
1-go drisha and learn watered down versions of selected sugyas taught by an am ha'aretz/am ha'artza who can't use the Artscroll because it "assumes to much of a talmudic background"
2- go YCT and get taught agenda while a gmara sits unopened on your desk. (WARNING: keep your head up they might give you smicha when you aren't looking)
3- Find a friend who goes/went to YU and beg.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

As I tried to post last night,
TRS: it's ktzaros
Cheerio: If you want to learn gmara there are 3 options
1-go drisha and learn watered down versions of selected sugyas taught by an am ha'aretz/am ha'artza who can't use the Artscroll because it "assumes to much of a talmudic background"
2- go YCT and get taught agenda while a gmara sits unopened on your desk. (WARNING: keep your head up they might give you smicha when you aren't looking)
3- Find a friend who goes/went to YU and beg.

The Real Shliach said...

Chanie: the truth can not wait for tznius.

Cheerio: agreed.

Modeh: YCT?

chanie said...

Huh? Why am I so confused?

The Real Shliach said...

I think I mentioned something about nashim daatam kaalos last night...

Dovid said...

I totally saw that coming. Totally.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

TRS: repeat, ktzaros see somewhere at the beginning of perek shlosha she'achlu.

YCT- Yeshiva Chovevei Torah. It bears the same relationship to it's name as the Holy ROman Emperor did to his.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Sorry about the vague reference but that's the great advantage of being a litvak. Your rebbe was famous for quoting daf amud and line (if I was a snag I would say big deal, so could one of my mesivta rebbeim) but we have an excuse for vagueness since Rav Elya Lopian used to say things like "it was at the bottom of an amud alef in psachim and the lines were shaped like such and such and it began right next to R' Akiva Eiger." Then when someone was foolish enough to ask "but rebbi what daf?" He would say "that takes a baki."

The Real Shliach said...

Dovid: she was asking for it.
Modeh: again- I don't get what you're trying to say.
Does it really make snags mad when you ask, "who the heck is elya lopian?"

chanie said...

Fine, so be it. But beware: I know more than you think. I simply was asking what your conundrum of a comment meant.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

What part? I thought you didn't know what YCT stood for, so I told you.

The rest is about your constant misquotation of "nashim daatam ktzaros"

And yes, it does make them mad because they have no clue either and don't want to be put on the spot.

The Real Shliach said...

Chanie: you know more than I think about what?

Modeh: I didn't know what it stood for, but I know what it is.

Oh, sorry.

LOL. So who is he?

chanie said...

About everything.

The Real Shliach said...

I'm highly skeptical of your claims. Until I get some verification...privately of course.

chanie said...

Eh, you just want to email me.

The Real Shliach said...

Actually, I have bigger and better taavos.

le7 said...

Hah. That comment made me want to kvell. Should I insert TRS' favorite roshei tavos now?

The Real Shliach said...

Yes please.

le7 said...

VD"L

The Real Shliach said...

Thank you.

chanie said...

Good, because I'm not interested.

The Real Shliach said...

Thank you.

chanie said...

You're welcome.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I can only safely say this because I am in an undisclosed location in a different state than TRS and a different country than chanie, otherwise I would get egged to death, but you two sound like the lead characters in every cheap adventure movie ever made who spend half the dialog talking about how they aren't interested in each other. Then the last scene is their wedding.

Re Rav Elya: Nu!! How can you not know who Rav Elya Lopian was?! Shaygetz!

chanie said...

You will get egged and should get egged. Just because he wants to email me, while pretending to be chassidish by not linking to girls' blogs...and I refuse to email a bochur (ew) who isn't my chassan, and who I wouldn't date for five minutes unless I was paid $1000 per minute....and that he keeps on pushing, and I'm glad I'm nowhere near the creep....does not mean we'll get married. But nice one.

The Real Shliach said...

Modeh: Sorry, not happening.

Yeah, I've been called worse. So who is he?

Chanie: I didn't want to email you, I wanted you to email me. Big difference.
And thanks for the haskamos-when a crazy person says these kinds of things about you, it means you must be doing something right.

Dovid said...

Alright lets drop it.

The Real Shliach said...

Man, you're boring.

Dovid said...

fine, please continue.

The Real Shliach said...

Without Chanie to abuse it's no fun.

chanie said...

TRS- If I'm crazy, at least it's in a more kedushadik way than if you're crazy.

If you like, I can insult you worse.

You wanted me to email you. Ah, I see. And why would that be if you didn't want to respond? Perhaps you just didn't want to be blamed for starting. Too bad.

If you're having fun with this, perhaps I should drop out, because I don't like giving people like you fun.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Rav Elya Lopian is a deceased ROsh Yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael who wrote many mussar sfarim which apparently enhance many people's avodas hashem but just make me want to puke. I forgot where he was RY so I guess the snags can get even angrier at me than they are already.

The Real Shliach said...

Chanie: I'm not having fun, though I do appreciate all the extra page views this is getting me, but yeah, feel free to drop out any time.

Modeh: Hmm.

chanie said...

Ah, I see. So then don't say it's fun.

The Real Shliach said...

Or maybe it is fun. Who knows?

chanie said...

Who cares?

The Real Shliach said...

Takeh.

chanie said...

Good.